NSU Ro80

cheddar    on 28 September 2006

I remember it was no good in Top Trumps cos it was listed as something like 998cc.


have you looked at......

www.ro80.nl/

............. fascinating info in the history section, in English too.

Aprilia    on 28 September 2006

It was warranty claims on the Ro80's engine that broke the company IIRC. Tip seal wear was a major problem and not many engines made it past 18-20k miles. We actually tried to re-build one or two of these (borrowing tools from the agents) but not very successfully. The Ro80 also used a wierd semi-auto transmission that was supposed to help compensate for the relative lack of low-speed torque of the rotary engine (it uses a torque convertor). I believe the Ro80 body/chassis was used to develop the Audi 100.

I owned several Mazda RX3's in the early 1970's. They were basically a rotary-engined version of the Mazda 818 (a small cart-sprung Escort equivalent). The RX3 engine (Mazda 12A) was actually not bad and much better than the Ro80 engine. Mazda more or less cured the tip-seal problem by using very hard sintered-iron seal pieces. The problem of the corner seals remained - these tend to wear depressions in the side housings as the rotor 'pirouettes' as it goes through its cycle. The side housings had to be metal-sprayed and ground to repair - not many got past about 30k miles without a rebuild.
we rebuilt a number of 12A and 13A (RX4) engines and they were pretty easy to do (no special tools required - unlike the Ro80), but not always totally successful. There are massive thermal gradients across the rotor housings in a rotary engine and coolant leaks in the combustion zone were a common problem - caused by differential expansion of the alloy epitrochoid housings and the cast iron side housings, and the thermal gradients across the engine.
It was all very educational for me, but I'm not sure I'd want to tangle with a rotary engine again. Reciprocating engines have improved so much that the power-to-weight and smoothness advantages of the rotary are not what they once were.

cheddar    on 28 September 2006

Just been looking at the website I mentioned above, it is fascinating for anyone intersted in cars even if most is in Dutch, great pictures etc etc.

M.M    on 28 September 2006

When I was a kid Dad took Which magazine. I would avidly read these to try and persuade him towards the car of "my" choice. I've bought a few of these old Which mags on EBay recently and have the one with the RO80 test from Oct 1969.

It is a real gem of a group test with the Citroen DS, XJ6, Mercedes 220, RO80, Rover 3500 P6 and Volvo 164. If you are interested Nomag I can copy and send to you.

I remember the RO80 well from the 70s. Around '72 Dad bought a new Audi 100 from the dealers and they had a new RO80 in the showroom I tried to get him to buy that instead. However by then the low engine life issues were well known and no-one wanted them... well only the very brave. It stood in that showroom for months.

The Which test overview for the RO80 says a brilliant concept with fantastic ride and handling but a little slow with high fuel and very high oil consumption (200mpp!). It was reliable though (they took it to 14,000mls) and despite the downsides they made it the test best buy. At the time it was £100 more than the DS21 Citroen and £500 less than the Mercedes 220.

David

bell boy    on 29 September 2006

they were ugly and didnt sell as i remember ...mr lud

Pugugly {P}    on 29 September 2006

they were ugly and didnt sell as i remember ...mr lud

That's never mattered with proper cars.

Altea Ego    on 29 September 2006

The k70 was nothing like the ro80. The k70 was a back to front beetle

Hideous beast
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >

Lud    on 29 September 2006

You don't remember what it looked like, either of you.

It looked very like the RO80. And was a damn good car.

Altea Ego    on 29 September 2006

Sorry I was thinking of the VW type 4


------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >

bell boy    on 29 September 2006

well i remember the k70 very well im afraid

Lud    on 29 September 2006

Agree they can't have sold well though om... something to do with what people expected?

Anyway, soon superseded by the first Passat, and would you want one of those nowadays? I can say very empahatically that I wouldn't.

M.M    on 29 September 2006

None of you remember the K70 correctly.... it was like a Mk.2 Cortina with squared off lights. Ugly as hell and a right load of trouble in its day. Had a friend who kept his Dad's dry stored from the 70s until a few years back in case it might be valuable.... made about £200!

David

M.M    on 29 September 2006

Look....

1949car1985.piranho.de/auto-des-jahres/k70.htm

henry k    on 29 September 2006

Agree they can't have sold well though om...

There are very few images on Google which IMO supports that.

K70 and various early Passats
www.e-vw.net/?p=dossier&rub=&num_p=0&id=163

K70
tinyurl.com/znwhl
hello.apo.nmsu.edu/~sjnk/bullwinkle/w1970.jpg

cheddar    on 30 September 2006

>>Closest relative of the NSU RO80 is the VW K70... very similar body shape and a very nice car. First VW front-drive water-cooled car. >>

The K70 was an NSU design adopted by VW.

cheddar    on 30 September 2006

web.telia.com/~u31614134/K70/eNSUK70.html

Lud    on 30 September 2006

Thank you very much cheddar. Just what I thought.

Look at the proportions of the thing.

The one I drove in Accra, Ghana in 1977 was silver and had two fat twin-choke Dellortos or similar, but would whisper around at African market speeds as well as go very briskly indeed. Absolutely beautiful motor, far better than the first Passat which soon superseded it.

Garethj    on 30 September 2006

Hope the Ro80 ownership goes well, a friend had one a couple of years ago (in fact he sold it to one of the staff of a classic car magazine) and it used to munch through plugs at a fair rate, probably because of partial wear on the rotor tips.

The engine is only one part of the car, as important is the packaging as you'll see when you get in it. The floor is completey flat inside (like the K70) and there's a huge sensation of space. The rear doors are pretty much vertical on the back edge, none of this curving around the wheelarch nonsense so its proportions are different to most cars and the wheelbase is very long. My hazy memory is playing up, but didn't the windscreen curve in 2 directions for better aerodynamics? That makes it fairly unique too.

The original wheels are a thing of beauty, quite light and better looking (IMHO) than the contemporary Porsche wheels but I think they're the same stud pattern.

Someone's mentioned the gearlever - there's a microswitch in the base so don't rest your hand on the lever or it'll declutch, the torque converter was used to mask the engine's relative lack of torque.

Number plates for your '74 car must be yellow on the rear and white on the front, black & silver are for '72 and older but you didn't choose a completely modern car like the Ro80 when it was new and then stick old style plates on it!

Gareth

M.M    on 30 September 2006

Audi were already making their forerunner to the 80/100 series (& the Passat for VW) in late 1965.... two years before the RO80 and four years before the K70. They started (I think) with just the name Audi and then it soon expanded into the Audi 60, 72, 80 & Super 90 range.

99% sure all these were water cooled front wheel drive with good interior space, great ride/handling and a build quality miles above our Austin, Triumph & Rover offerings.

Google for images of them and you'll see just that classic early Audi styling like the Audi 72 (model not year) here....

auta5p.car.cz/katalog/audi/audi_1700_01.htm

Interestingly Audi must have been impressed by the RO80 and thought one day "we'll make one like that"... it took until the truly excellent 1883 Audi 100 for us to be properly reminded of the NSU.

The Audi-VW-NSU company history is a bit involved and told in different ways by different sources. However VW were buying Audi shares from around 1964 and I think they had a controlling stake by late 1966. So when the NSU K70 came along VW already had all the watercooled/FWD engineering they needed. Hence some comments you will see as to why they bothered to slap the VW badge on it rather than use one of their better existing Audi models.... which of course is eventually what they did with the 1970s VW Passat-Audi 80 range.

David

SjB {P}    on 30 September 2006

>>auta5p.car.cz/katalog/audi/audi_1700_01.htm

If anyone is interested in translating the Czech language, please ask and I'll do my best.

Roger Jones    on 3 October 2006

From Drive on! The social history of the motor car by L. J. K. Setright (2002: Palawan Press; 2003: Granta)

p. 119
"In 1967 NSU produced the sweetest, smoothest and most encouraging car that had yet been seen, the Wankel-engined Ro80 . . ."

p. 139
"Prominent among these [manufacturers pursuing aerodynamic solutions] was Audi, whose 1982 version of the upper-middle-class family saloon set new standards in airflow management and slippery styling. Few people recognised that the contours of the new Audi 100 recalled those of the Ro80 made in 1968 by NSU . . ."

Nomag    on 3 October 2006

I drove my Ro from Romford to Derbyshire on Sunday afternoon. I've driven lots of cars, and I can honestly say it was the most pleasurable journey I've ever done, despite the car drinking like a fish and consuming a good 8 gallons of unleaded (I was doing 80+ mph all the way!). I've never had so many curious glances, or EVER had a BMW driver flash me to let me into the fast lane on the M25, which happened a total of 4 times!

I'm stunned by the car in every way. It has a little rust, but is a very honest example which has had a decent respray and considering its age is in v good nick. The guy I bought it off has 12 Ro80's and clearly doesn't sell them to make a profit, just to try and keep them on the road.

Considering I stepped straight from my 2006 Leon diesel to a 32 year old car I didn't feel like I was stepping back so far. Nicely weighted power steering, smooth and intuitive semi auto box (again far ahead of its time) and the sound of the rotary powerplant is like nothing else. What's more, it didn't even burn a drop of oil, the whole way back.

The car is in the custody of my FiL for a couple of week's tinkering before he drives it up to the North East for me. May I encourage any of you thinking of getting a REAL classic to consider the Ro and keep this increasingly rare vehicle on the road.

Incidentally, I'll post some pictures of the car on a freebie site soon and drop a link here.

Lud    on 3 October 2006

Not a drop of oil, eh? Sounds like a very good one Nomag. And evidently the gearbox and electric clutch suit you (have to say I didn't like them much).

I confess to a measure of envy.

Aprilia    on 3 October 2006

It **should** burn some oil - they are designed to. About 600mpp IIRC - this is to get some lubrication to the tip, corner and side seals.

cheddar    on 3 October 2006

I think I recall reading that putting 2 stroke oil in the petrol helps the rotor tips, a weak mix, perhaps 100/1 or less, check with an Ro expert before you do it though.

Aprilia    on 3 October 2006

Some years back I know a chap who had a model rotary engine - made in Japan by OS. It was a lovely little thing - had a capacity of about 10cc I think.

One rotary engine car I would love to drive is the Mazda Cosmo from the early '90's - I thought they were a lovely looking car. There can only be a handful in the country.

Nomag    on 3 October 2006

Thanks again for the comments
The only way to get oil to the rotor tips is to mix 2 stroke in with the petrol. The guy I bought it from told me to slosh a little bit in with each tankful, which I will.
It probably used a tiny bit of oil, as he told me he deliberately slightly overfilled it in anticipation of my long journey.
Regarding the Mazda Cosmo - the guy I bought the Ro from has the only original Wankel engined Cosmo on the road in the UK....

M.M    on 4 October 2006

Which magazine on its way Nomag.

I was interested in their oil consumption comments. They thought it was OK that they only got 200 miles per pint with the NSU (!!!) as the engine "mixed the oil with the petrol for lubrication". Did they really mean that? In the same test the Citroen DS21 was best at 3,600 miles per pint.

David

Nomag    on 4 October 2006

Hmm...that's news to me! I didn't think it mixed the engine oil with the petrol, hence why i have been told to add 2 stroke to the tank for rotor tip lubrication. I know the oil consumption on the Ro can be high, but I certainly hope it's not 200 miles per pint! I will be changing the oil and filter every 3k though, have been told to use HD30 diesel oil.

Aprilia    on 4 October 2006

Its many years since I had the NSU Wankel apart, but I have a feeling that it did pump oil into the combustion chamber. Certainly something like 500-600mpp rings a bell.
I had more Mazda 12A and 13A apart and they **definitely** do pump oil into the engine. There is small oil pump, externally mounted at the front of the engine, it has two small semi-transparent pipes that lead up to the carburettor and each goes into one of the chokes to drip oil into the inlet manifold and hence the rotor chambers. The Mazdas run about 500mpp.

Lud    on 4 October 2006

Not all that different from a reciprocating engine which splashes or sprays the cylinder walls...

Aprilia    on 5 October 2006

Not all that different from a reciprocating engine which splashes or

sprays the cylinder walls...

Its a lot different because on a reciprocating engine there is good splash or spray lube of the cylinder walls each cycle. This is mostly scraped off by the oil control ring to leave a molecular layer of oil.
In a rotary engine there is no equivalent lubrication of the tip, corner and side seals by the crankcase oil. Oil control from the rotor journal feeds is achieved by two pairs of concentric circular oil control seals located either side of the rotor journal. These are a bit of bugbear on rotary engines and wear here results in very high oil consumption.
On an unworn, unmodified engine the only way for oil to reach the tip, corner and side seals is via introduction of oil via the inlet manifold (with the fuel etc).

Although rotary engine exponents say there are only three moving parts, once you add up all the seals there are a lot lot more. Each rotor has 25 seals plus associated springs, o-rings etc etc.

Garethj    on 5 October 2006

Nicely weighted power steering

I think Tatra used the Ro80 power steering rack in the 613-4Mi and 613-5, it's made by ZF isn't it?

Hope you enjoy owning it - just think that back in 1968 you could still buy an Austin Cambridge.....

helicopter    on 5 October 2006

That answer should have slotted in as an answer to scott1s query as to the origin of the Audi name further up the thread.

Dynamic Dave    on 5 October 2006

That answer should have slotted in as an answer to scott1s query as to the origin of the Audi name further up the thread.

It has. Just temp change to view threaded and you will see.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=45334&...t

Nomag    on 8 October 2006

I've posted some pics of my Ro at groups.msn.com/honestjohn/nomagscarsincnsuro80.msnw if anyone is interested.
Car is with my FiL at the moment, looking forward to getting it up here to the North East next weekend.
While I think about it, can anyone recommend a good product for a) full shampoo of the seats and b)cleaning up dirty pale headlining, the car has a slightly 'musty' unused smell, not damp, and the headlining is quite dirty!

Pugugly {P}    on 8 October 2006

Lovely looking motor. It looks as if it was designed last week ! Have you driven it yet ?

Nomag    on 8 October 2006

See my post above. Drove Croydon-Romford and then Romford-Derbyshire last weekend. About 180 miles total. Used 41 litres unleaded! But drove at 80mph+ all the way on the longer leg and throughly enjoyed myself - it even drives like it was designed, well, some time after last week!

Micky    on 8 October 2006

">It looks as if it was designed last week<"

www.caradisiac.com/media/images/le_mag/mag251/citr...g

Pugugly {P}    on 8 October 2006

Micky,

I knew it reminded me of something.......beautiful cars both.

Micky    on 8 October 2006

Looks good for a grand.

For the next set of photos, please stand to one side of the NSU ;-)

Aprilia    on 8 October 2006

While I think about it, can anyone recommend a good product

for a) full shampoo of the seats and b)cleaning up dirty

pale headlining, the car has a slightly 'musty' unused smell, not

damp, and the headlining is quite dirty!

You could use very dilute 'traffic film remover' (from a motor factor) or try 'Upholstery shampoo' (from a factor or 'Machine Mart').

For the hard surfaces and engine compartment I recommend Simple Green 'Aircraft Cleaner' because its non-corrosive to alloy and doesn't damage plastics or rubber (www.simplegreen.co.uk).

Pugugly {P}    on 8 October 2006

Autoglym's best IMHO ! (for a car like that)

T Lucas    on 8 October 2006

Cracking looking car,and for a bag of sand its a steal,i wish i still owned my RX3 coupe.There is one on ebay Australia at the mo for 15,000 Aussi Dollars,not sure if i'm brave enough though.

Lud    on 8 October 2006

You are to be congratulated Nomag.

Keep it like that.

Roger Jones    on 9 October 2006

I envy you, Nomag. Well done.

barchettaman    on 9 October 2006

Looks a bit like an Austin Maxi from the side though....

Only kidding. Cracking condition, well done Nomag - happy motoring.