any - Older cars, values, classics, useable?
gordonbennet
on 1 December 2014
I was going to add this post as a reply to the current thread about Cars That Shouldn't Have Been or whatever the thread is.
It would have been in reply to a poster who sold his mk 1 Golf cabrio for £1400 at the time and now similar examples worth £7.5k...i bet we've all had cars we wished we'd kept.
Thought it might be food for discussion so here's my view and what i'm trying to achieve in my own case.
Values of cars likely to or entering classic status whilst true for good examples have to kept in context, to keep such a car in condition to fetch that £7.5k would need constant annual tlc, rustproofing, regular overmaintenance fettling and refurb of components parts and panels, and careful use keeping the mileage sensible, all in value totalling the equivalent of many thousands of pounds.
If neglected and abused or high mileage, as the vast majority of cars are, then assuming it hasn't actually fallen apart, it would need even more spending on it to put it back in proper condition, and you can't lose the miles without losing it's provenance.
Just for info here Mercedes W124 is the E Class from 85 to 95/6, available as saloon, estate, convertible and coupe which i have...i've had all bar the convertible previously, had one of each at the same time previously.
My MB is now 18 so still in banger status, it's likely hopefully if i manage not to destroy it, to hold its present value, call it £5k'ish as good W124s seem to be on the up and getting thin on the gound, and it might actually start to appreciate again in a few years should it reach classic age, we paid £9k for it 12 years ago.
The costs to keep it in good conditon though have been in the thousands, it goes in to my handy body chap (who has now moved away from boring accident and moderns to concentrate on older/classic) every two years for fettling any scratches chips and rust spots, it gets cleaned underneath regularly and additional rustproofing as best i can underneath and in all accessible cavities, gets serviced and MOT'd every year by my venerable MB indy....lots of money involved and my costs are very low compared with most, this year alone has seen repair maintenance and body bills around £3k, i could have left those things but they would only have deteriorated and been more costly as a result.
Many of my fortunately rare model have been 'barried' or other wise interfered bodily with, many more neglected and driven excessive miles, those surviving would cost far more than £5k (peanuts when you start dismantling a MB) to get back into the far from contours condition of mine.
Course it's all academic cos i don't intend to sell it and if i did the LPG conversion (unless removed) would knock it's classic value, and there's every possibility my son will keep it going if it's still here when i kick the bucket.
I don't think there's real money to be made in older or classic cars unless you've got Mystic Meg's crytal ball, and buy the right ones at the right time when a fashion fad takes hold, examples being early RWD Escorts and VW campers.
It costs so much in time if not money to keep them up to scratch that any increase in value has cost the owners one way or another.
The balancer being that depreciation is no longer an issue, so is a well chosen possible future classic an interesting and cost effective alternative to new cars?
We all know that bangernomics, so long as you do your own maintenance and basic repairs, is the cheapst of all car ownerships.
What's worth buying now to enjoy love and cherish, and hopefully at least keep its value?
Any thoughts?
Comments
Andrew-T on 1 December 2014
Modest-mileage Pug 205 Dturbo or STDT? Under a grand, and body should be solid if undamaged. No space to work round the engine though. There's one on Car&Classic just now ....
craig-pd130 on 1 December 2014
I reckon the mid-90s Japanese GTs like the 'flatfish' 300SX, Toyota Supra etc, if in relatively original condition.
Most of them seem to have fallen into the hands of the Max Power owners brigade, but I did see an unmolested 300SX a week or so back and it's still a strikingly good-looking car.
Eddy56 on 1 December 2014
I think the late 80s and 90s are a rich hunting ground for a usable and future classic. If I had the time (and I don't) I'd be only too happy to spend my weekends out looking for a bargain from this list. I was in my late teens when these cars were new and at the time I was starting out my motoring life with some spirited driving in my parents' Toyota Corolla, I'd need to write that wrong by buying something proper from the era.
Capri 2.8i special
Williams Renault Clio
Renault 5GT Turbo
Alpha Romeo 75 or 155
gordonbennet on 1 December 2014
I think the late 80s and 90s are a rich hunting ground for a usable and future classic.
I think a lot of us enjoy cars from this era, and regard those years as the best all round car years of the lot, especially for those who can DiY.
Safety handling economy corrosion resistance durabilty and reliability reached almost current standards, but before they got carried away with computerising things for the sake of it.
Certainly my first choices of cars to see my time out will most likely be 90's designs even if registered in the first half of the noughties, apart from that almost all modern cloned designs do nothing for me at all.
One of my old colleagues had a 2.8 Brooklands Capri, he used it during winters and i begged him to either DiY or get it rustproofed professionally, he didn't, i suppose the tin weevil has had a bumper time with it now.
Wackyracer on 1 December 2014
it gets cleaned underneath regularly and additional rustproofing as best i can underneath and in all accessible cavities
What rustproofing solution do you prefer? I haven't rust proofed a car for years.
Always a hard thing to predict what old cars to buy as an investment, Things like the Ferrari Dino and De Tomaso Pantera were only the price of a new Ford Fiesta once and now they demand pretige brand money.
Edited by Wackyracer on 01/12/2014 at 14:09
madf on 1 December 2014
I remember looking at Porsche 911s in the mid 1980s.
Then I bought a 5 bedroom house for £65k.
A 1972 Porsche Carrera 911 was £15k or so. (so very expensive compared to a house.. so I did not)
Now the house is £400-£450.k So +592%
And the Porsche is £110k (or therabouts). So +630%
Buy a house instead..
Edited by madf on 01/12/2014 at 14:25
gordonbennet on 1 December 2014
What rustproofing solution do you prefer? I haven't rust proofed a car for years.
I used to be a Waxoyl girl, but posts from Madf among others about Dinitrol prompted me to look elsewhere.
After several recommendations from similarly minded old fools on another site (aimed at old cars and hating moderns) i bought and used a good quantity of Bilt Hamber's products this year, result being i'm no longer a Waxoyl girl.
Bilt Hamber is considerably more expensive but the cavity wax comes in large aerosols, complete with long probes to get the product right in, it's not quite in professional coverage, but for ease of use, and lack of waste it's streets ahead, done on warm days i didn't have one single blockage.
One of the posters on this other forum did an unscientific test over several months, where he coated sheets of unpainted steel in various proofers and one sheet left plain steel, the results after salt baths were quite staggering, the Bilt Hamber doing it's work remarkably well, far better than the others...for an amateur test it seemed conclusive to me.
The Outback was bought for a song just after the winter this year, i've rustproofed the whole car as much as possible simply because it was in such solid condition and ran so well that we LPG converted it within a month, hence the work to make it last as long as possible.
I know they say cars don't rust any more, presumably 'they' are people who never go underneath cars, the Scoob had heavy rust but not perforated in the rear subframe and suspension, and i spent considerable time treating both frames with the underbody wax (after painting some sections), and fully injected all cavites as best i could with the cavity wax.
A much easier and infinitely less messy and wasteful job than any of my previous Waxoyl exploits, so despite looking far more expensive, it more than makes up the difference in use.
As a bonus it doesn't stink for months, about 3 days and all the (not bad at all) smells had gone.
I had the Hilux professionally rustproofed, that was near enough £400, now i wouldn't say i've done as good a job as the pro but reckon the Outback cost me £150 in rustproofing materials, if i can get 5 years out of it without it falling apart that'll do me, any more a bonus...that model can rust in the rear wheelarches and front wings and i've stripped out as much as possible in order to get in all the nooks and crannies.
Ferrari's and such machines might be where the money is, but you need a footballers salary to maintain the things in the first place, way out of my league.
Edited by gordonbennet on 01/12/2014 at 14:58
HandCart on 1 December 2014
(whispers) Care to give me a clue what that other forum is, out of interest, GB?
gordonbennet on 1 December 2014
(whispers) Care to give me a clue what that other forum is, out of interest, GB?
if you googled auto..... a rude word all in one word, you'd probably find it.
those of a sensitive disposition might be offended there.
hope thats not a problem Avant, the place in question is nothing at all like this place, if it is a problem i apologise, and you have the big delete button.
HandCart on 1 December 2014
Well, I had to try quite a few rude words, but I think I've found it.
Certainly not heard of that before - looks quite humorous at first glance
thanks GB ;-)
gordonbennet on 1 December 2014
Well, I had to try quite a few rude words, but I think I've found it.
My pleasure, i'll try some more rude words meself and see where you went..:-)
bathtub tom on 1 December 2014
>>if you googled auto..... a rude word all in one word, you'd probably find it.
Tried everything I could think of and couldn't find it, perhaps I've led too pure a life.
Anyone give me a clue?
gordonbennet on 1 December 2014
perhaps I've led too pure a life.
Somehow i doubt that..:-)
autos.
you'll probably get it first after one or two hits.
bathtub tom on 1 December 2014
autos.you'll probably get it first after one or two hits.
Found it, thanks. That 'e' on the end threw me.
craig-pd130 on 1 December 2014
For my 70s Japanese motorbike, I've been using a product called ACF-50 for the past 6 or 7 years or so to protect the chrome against salt etc.
It's far and away the best stuff I've ever used - one application painted onto the chrome in October is left without washing or disturbing it until spring, when I can just wash off the crusted salt and dirt from winter rides, leaving the chrome spotless. It visibly eats rust too.
I believe it would be excellent used in box sections, sills, inside doors etc as it's quite thin and flows / self-heals well. However it would need reapplying on open / exposed sections of body.
mss1tw on 1 December 2014
For my 70s Japanese motorbike, I've been using a product called ACF-50 for the past 6 or 7 years or so to protect the chrome against salt etc.
It's far and away the best stuff I've ever used - one application painted onto the chrome in October is left without washing or disturbing it until spring, when I can just wash off the crusted salt and dirt from winter rides, leaving the chrome spotless. It visibly eats rust too.
I believe it would be excellent used in box sections, sills, inside doors etc as it's quite thin and flows / self-heals well. However it would need reapplying on open / exposed sections of body.
I use this one my motorbike too. Great stuff.
I popped the bungs out of the sills on the Berlingo and gave a squirt in the box sections too. It 'creeps' very well, so should be of some benefit.
Wackyracer on 7 December 2014
Many thanks GB, I used waxoyl in my younger years when it was recommended by an almost retired collegue who had a mint condition VW camper that got a yearly treatment of it.
I think I may have questioned Madf or someone else before about Dinitrol but, didn't get around to obtaining any.
I've now bought a couple of cans to do a couple of spot repairs and I'll give it a full going over in the warmer weather.
Avant on 1 December 2014
I bought my Z3 when it was 7 years old and kept it for 5 years. It never went wrong and I sold it because clutch, battery, exhaust etc would inevitably need replacing assuming they weren't new when I got it. And I was about to retire.
I did wonder about keeping it and seeing when if at all it started going up in value again, but I think I might have had to wait a long time before it became a classic.
corax on 1 December 2014
Years ago on Top Gear when it was a motoring and not an entertainment program (it might have been the Quentin Wilson, aka Count Dracula era), they did a report on a guy that had a warehouse in a secret location in which he had an assortment of pristine future classics that he continually added to. The warehouse was dehumidified and he employed people to look after the cars and drive them to keep them in good condition.
The car collection there was amazing - I sometimes wonder if the setup is still going and he continued to add to it.
gordonbennet on 1 December 2014
I'd love to see that episode Corax, wonder if it's lurking about on Youtube anywhere, i'll have a peruse.
corax on 2 December 2014
I thought it might be this guy
www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/molar...1
But there is no record of him appearing on Top Gear, and the cars I remember were from the 80's, like RS200's and Lancia Integrales. Still, this guy has probably got an example of each - he's got just about everything else !
John F on 3 December 2014
What's worth buying now to enjoy love and cherish, and hopefully at least keep its value?
Any thoughts?
Six months ago I at last found an old low mileage A8 SWB W12. I have admired this engine ever since I saw a cut-away exhibit of it on a pole in the Glass factory at Dresden and had a go in the Phaeton on the virtual race track in the basement.
Ten years ago it was Audi's sports saloon flagship and there are only about 60 RHDs in this country as the W12 was soon restricted to the LWB, Phaeton and Bentley. Its engineering pedigree is impeccable - the brainchild of master engineer Ferdinand Piech [Porche 917, Audi Quattro] grandson of F Porsche [Silver Arrows and,er, Tiger tanks]
It has the luxury of a limo most of the time and , thanks to its slightly lower final drive gearing than the LWB, the performance of an Aston when wanted. And it is discreet - no-one gives it a second look. It is a joy to drive and will probably still be going strong long after me! No other manufacturer could add another 6 cylinder engine to its 6 cylinder rear wheel drive cars and make it drive the front wheels as well - with no unsightly bonnet bulges. It well deserves classic status.
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